Tweaking Vader, A topic for readers of Design This!

You may need to read Design This #8 before you can fully participate in this discussion.

“Tweaking Vader” is one of those topics that inspired me to create this forum. We’ve all had thoughts on how to fix this poor deck, but this thread is a little different. Everyone sort of touches on this topic when they talk about tweaking Vader; I want to explore why Vader’s deck sucks. For reference, here’s his deck:

Darth Vader
Health 20
Deck Red

Generic Minors: Stormtroopers
Health 4
Deck Weak ranged

Talent Cards

Wrath x3
Choose an opponent. All of that opponent’s characters receive 2 damage.

Choke x3
Choose any minor character. That character receives 6 damage.

Dark Side Drain x2
A3: If Vader does damage to a character with this card, Vader recovers the amount of damage done to the character.

Throw Debris x2
Choose any character. That character receives 4 damage.

Your Skills Are Not Complete x1
Choose any opponent. That opponent must reveal his/her hand and discard all Special cards.

All Too Easy x1
A3*: *If this card is not blocked, the attacked character receives 20 damage instead of 3.

Taken individually, Vader’s cards aren’t so bad. I think everyone can agree, that DSD would be more effective as an A4 or 5, and YSANC misses the boat by skipping over power combat cards. But everyone who tweaks Vader goes for bigger changes – adding some power defense and power attacks and similar fare – why is that? Or rather, couldn’t a better deck be made just from these talent cards distributed in a different fashion?

I have my own thoughts on the subject, but what do you think? What is Vader’s Path to Victory, Path Resources, etc., and are his archetypes rearrangeable into a more successful Path?

I've always seen Vader's deck as a two-pronged path to victory. First, is the All Too Easy Path. *If* you can land this card, you win the game, and his red deck and YSANC can help achieve it. If you can stack your hand full of offense, then theoretically you can attack for 5 turns in a row with the last attack being All Too Easy to win the game.

The second path to victory is a direct damage path. He has ample DD to take down minors, and then 14DD against the major. If he can last long enough to cycle his deck, he can take down any character with DD alone (after 14DD, just pick up another Throw Debris and it seals the win against everyone but Mace).

Outside of those two paths, there really isn't anything else. It is possible to get lucky and land a couple of ST shots or maybe a 5/1 or something and have that support the DD path, but that still means the main path is DD.

So, I suppose the next issue is, how well supported are those two paths? Well, the first one isn't supported at all, really. I mean YSANC wastes an action to see a player's hand to gauge their defense, but then they can just keep drawing and you'll never really know what they have. In an all-out attack-attack-attack scenario, sneaking a peak at their hand for 1 action, actually slows you down more than it helps you. And since it only pulls special cards, it accomplishes nothing to help you land All Too Easy. In addition, without any movement cards, you are completely shackled to the die roll. Most characters have at least 1 movement card, and if they play it, it basically can shut down your attack-attack-attack path entirely. The point is to overwhelm the opponent with attacks to pull defense and land ATE, but if you can't even stay adjacent, then that idea doesn't work so well. Also, with only two real defense cards, Vader leaves himself wide open with a strategy like this. While he's trying to chip away at an opponent's defense to land ATE, they can just retaliate right back and Vader's helpless to stop them. This path to victory doesn't work...but then again, if he had any *real* help, would anyone ever want to play against Vader? He'd just win all the time.

The second direct damage path is likewise not very well supported. With only 14DD, he's only going to be able to take down 2 (maybe 3) major characters with DD alone. And doing so will require him to basically go through his entire deck. With no real resources to help him get through his deck faster, or to help him sustain a long game that requires him to go through the whole deck, this path to victory will hardly ever work. He doesn't even have sufficient minors to help block. Pretty much any kind of resources (card draws, movement, power defense, strong minors) would help with this path to victory, but his deck has none of it. He does have some healing cards, and my guess is that these were intended to provide support and give him some added staying power, but it never works out that way.

Vader is the quintessential "works against himself" kind of deck. Consider the following:

1. Choke kills of minors characters...but Wrath also affects minors characters, this is wasted DD effects and the work against each other. If Wrath kills off the minors, then you're left with useless Chokes taking up valuable talent card slots...Choke can be reduced to the worst kind of Sponge imaginable.

2. Dark Side Drain typically works well against weak, generic minors, but the above cards kill them off.

3. As was mentioned, YSANC can help guage defense to help ATE, but more often than not it ends up stealing a valuable action where you could have attacked. YSANC actually works against ATE more than it helps.

4. A path to victory that includes ATE and requires round after round of attacks, runs counter to a path to victory where you sit back and fire off DD. These two paths are opposite and incongruent. They work against each other.

There is so much wrong with this deck that I am firm believer it needs to be scrapped and redone completely. I do not believe you can re-arrange the existing cards into a different distribution and create a deck that works (although I'm sure that's where this is going to head...I'll be curious to see what solutions people can offer). The solution for me though, is to decide on one path to victory and support it properly...and this would require dropping at least 1 or more cards and inserting at least 1 or more new cards.

Clearly, "a better deck [could] be made just from these talent cards distributed in a different fashion" -- swap out a couple chokes for a couple more debris and Vader's ceiling shoots through the roof (visualize that one if you can ). The real weakness I see in Vader's deck is the lack of movement -- without enough direct damage to kill off a major, he needs to be in attack position somehow. Unlike Yoda (Force Lift, even Force Push), he has no compensation for this weakness. Still, Vader has a game against almost any character. He's pretty much hosed against Maul since one turn of Maul attacking and he's done, and he's completely hopeless against Obi because even getting off all the DD (and assuming no healing), Obi can hit him plenty of times before even the JB are cracked. But I like Vader's chances against Yoda, he at least has a game against the Emperor (though I for one don't think it's anywhere near even), he has at least a decent chance vs. the shooters if the Chokes come quickly (though movement really hampers him depending on the map), his matchup with Luke is as even as they come (IMO), his game against Anakin can work if Padme isn't a factor (again, Chokes), and although certainly not at an advantage, strategically played he is effective against Dooku, too. So let's see, the other is Mace, and there Vader is probably no match again. So he's really only awful against three characters, in my opinion; at least he has a game against the rest. And it's worth noting that Obi, Maul, and Mace are considered among the best decks. One final note, the map also plays a huge role because of the no-movement factor.

Hmm, I noticed I didn't directly answer the questions:

What is Vader’s Path to Victory?
It varies depending on his opponent, which is what I consider a strength of his deck. Against a character without power D, it's the attacks of the red deck with the finishing power of TD. Against personality minor opponents, it's hide behind stormtroopers until Chokes eliminate the possibilities of the opponent. I guess overall I'd say Vader's PtV is annoyance -- do what your opponent doesn't want, whether it's slowly chipping away at health by DD or hampering their efforts by eliminating the asset of a personality minor.

... Path Resources?

Throw Debris is obviously huge, but Chokes play an important role as well in Vader's versatility. YSANC plays into the "annoyance" PtV well against most opponents. Wrath is more of a sponge than Chokes because, although they do damage the major, the high damage of Choke is more effective against personality minors, while against weak generics, DSD is better than using the Wrath to kill them.

[A]re his archetypes rearrangeable into a more successful Path?

Drop 2 Wraths and add a Throw Debris doesn't change his DD to the major, and then toss in another DSD to make up for the damage that would probably be done to a minor. That's keeping at least one of every card still in there; eliminating the other Wrath in favor of something else is also a possibility if not all are to be included.

This post has been edited by volleyballgy on November 03, 2007 01:02 am

I think my dislike for Vader's deck is well-documented. I've tweaked and revised his deck many times and run into the problem Sultan suggests, which is that it's so far from working, making tweaks don't fix it. Eventually I just had to start over with Jedi Hunter Vader. I do have a tweaked one that we still play with and like, but it's still not a great deck.

I think Scott captured everything very well: He has 2 incongruent, poorly supported paths to victory that actually work against each other. As volleyballgy adds, he has no movement -- though I think if his direct-damage-from-a-distance path to victory were better supported, this wouldn't be so much of a detriment. He is also quite easy to kill.

One other problem with him is that he isn't FUN. You either try to rely upon direct damage, which to me sort of takes away the fun of the game: Choosing the order in which to play your attacks or defense, in an attempt to maximize your attack and defense values. You can't respond to direct damage in any way. It also encourages Vader to cower in a corner and avoid direct conflict. Is this what you want to see out of Darth Vader? The ATE path to victory is even less fun: It rarely works and when it does, frankly, it's anti-climactic. Ok, there's ATE, game over, that was fun.

Scott touches on a potential solution: Choose one of these 2 paths to victory and support it well by organizing the other special cards to support this path. The direct damage one is more attainable, and using it more effectively would diminish his lack of movement and defense. I already touched upon the problems with further supporting this path. Meanwhile, the ATE path could be supported with more attacks and enough defense to let him survive extended melee confrontations. To me, it's more of what I would want to see from Vader. However, as I stated, I think victory through ATE is anti-climactic.

The best path, to me, is one that is melee intensive without ATE, but that calls for another deck entirely.

I guess I just disagree about the 2 different paths to victory -- I think the strong attacks of the red deck, along with the highest health in the game, support what I'll call the "death by attrition" PtV. And, really, ATE really does support that PtV as well in that it makes an opponent stay away from Vader unless he has enough defense to play one for every attack of Vader's, thus prolonging the Duel and giving Vader a chance to draw more DD. Then, by the time the opponent does close in, he's about half dead already from the DD and Vader's attacks don't need to cause as much damage. The problem comes against opponents who can't be damaged by those basic attacks (Obi, Mace) or those who can finish Vader off the first time he attacks (Maul). ATE isn't a PtV for me... it's an intimidation factor that makes the opponent stay away from Vader unless they can defend everything. Though I think DSD would be better as an A4, they also support this PtV by (in theory) giving him that extra boost of life to stay alive long enough the one extra turn he might otherwise have died.

20HP just isn't that much at the end of the day. When you're dealing with power attacks in a range of 6-8 , it's only going to take an opponent 3-4 attacks against Vader to win (unless he gets lucky and has both his 1/4 and 2/3, then it will take one or two more attack). So, if the opponent moves in and gets the first two attacks, what's Vader going to do to stop it? Attack twice before the opponent attacks two more times for the win?

With only a 1/4 and a 2/3 the only chance Vader has at winning through an "attrition" path, is if has 10 cards, all the following: 5/1 x4, 4/1, 4/2 x2, DSD x2, 1/4 (or 2/3, or both). It would take you most of the game to draw up to that...and anyone who knows anything about Vader's deck will just move in and attack, attack, attack. Once you've taken Vader down to less than 10HP, his only choice to run and draw.

I think the idealized path you're talking about is one of the two I already mentioned, and ATE helps set that up. But, it's still poorly supported and never works. Even against your Bobas and Jangos....their movement and ranged attacks makes it impossible for Vader to stay adjacent or defend himself. Vader's only chance is against Luke and the Emperor, and that's mainly because both of them are low on attacks and HP (and in Luke's case, defense too). On a lucky draw he *maybe* has a chance against Yoda. Otherwise, he's toast against everyone else. I just don't think a war of attrition path works in this deck. I agree it's trying to be there, but it doesn't work.

I have to disagree with a point there Scott. In my experience, Vader does pretty well against Yoda. And as much frustration we have with Vader, his list of managable victories is decent:

-Luke Skywalker and Princess Leia

Vader seems designed specifically to defeat this deck.

-Emperor Palpatine and Royal Guards

Sidious can't do 20 HP of damage quick enough, he just can't. And this guards are toast before they can do much anyhow.

-Jango Fett and Zam Wessel

This is a great match, with potential falling either way. In the end though, on paper, I think Vader gets a small edge here. With Zam down, Jango's only hope is hoping around the reach of Vader's saber, and he can't avoid the Force. DSDs land pretty well here, as well.

-Yoda and Clone Troopers

Like Palp, Yoda has trouble doing damage and without movement cards, bad rolls can mean the game for Yoda. Plus, with extra Chokes, Stormtrooper cards and a ATE you shouldn't bother with, Yoda's Force Lifts are canceled as soon as they're played.

-Han Solo and Chewbacca

Depending on the board and your luck avoiding the Bowcaster, Vader's chances are significant here. And let's face it, like Jango with the yellow deck, Stormtroopers and DSDs fair decently here.

I would say that's about it. All the other characters are just too much pop for the big guy to handle. A bad boba draw would land him in dire straights, but that usually doesn't happen. I also beat Dooku with Vader once, but since I don't remember some brilliant turn of events there, I'm thinking that too was based on luck.

This post has been edited by IamRemote09 on November 05, 2007 03:20 pm

I agree with you remote, he has a better chance against these 5 decks than a lot of us give him credit for (but then again, 3 of them are Tier III decks anyway...and everyone fairs well against Tier III). But even so, would you actually give him the "upper hand" against any of them?

One point that I forgot to include in the "works against itself" list from before, is the "healing" factor of killing off minors. Chokes and Wrath's kill off minors, but if Vader is relying on DD to win, why would you ever want to kill off the minors? Doing so allows the major to just heal back as an effective counter. So, you're "damned if you do, damned if you don't" with the minors. Kill them off? Good, I can heal. Keep them alive? Good, that leaves me with more cards to hurt you. To further my point, Vader's combined record in the EDOL against the five characters Remote mentioned is a near even 17-16. That's far from having a very positive margin of victory.

I'll agree he has a chance against these select 5 decks, but I don't think he has a clear advantage against any of other 11 decks. And that, is sort of the point of the discussion. The deck isn't consistently effective, and it's because the deck's path to victory isn't supported well enough.

This post has been edited by Hags888 on November 05, 2007 04:39 pm

This is a excellent analysis. You pointed out every weakness to a T. Good job.

So here's my adjusted vader after considering Scott's comments:

Darth Vader
Health 20
Deck Red

Generic Minors: Stormtroopers
Health 4
Deck Weak ranged

Talent Cards

Wrath x3
Choose an opponent major character. That character receive 2 damage.

Choke x3
Choose an opponent character. The character can't move on their next turn. Draw a card.

Dark Side Drain x2
A3: If Vader does damage to a character with this card, Vader recovers the amount of damage done to the character.

Throw Debris x2
Choose any character. That character receives 4 damage.

Your Skills Are Not Complete x1
Choose any opponent. That opponent must reveal his/her hand and discard all Special cards OR any card with a defend value.

All Too Easy x1
A3*: *If this card is not blocked, the attacked character receives 20 damage instead of 3.

This is still very much Vaderesque...He still has the same card distribution. But, notice none of the cards work against each other. Just a subtle change to YSANC and Wrath. Then a change in Choke was unavoidable.

Whadaya think guys? Could this be considered something to test as the new Vader deck?